150. Crisis of Faith
Ross Gasking:
On 24/07/2006, at 12:52 PM, professionalmom2004 wrote:
Hello,
I found this group while searching the web for information regarding
quantum mechanics and Christianity. I am having a "crisis of faith"
and I hope that some of you can shed some light on my dilemma.
I have been a Christian for 32 years (since age 8) Suffice it to say
that my head knowledge of Theology has many times caused conflict with
my heart knowledge of God. Having read and studied the Bible and
being an avid reader of science, I have recently been giving a lot of
thought and research time to the understanding of Quantum Mechanical
Theory and Christianity. I first became aware of the conflict when I
saw the movie " What the Bleep do we know?" and read the book as well.
In the end, all matter is energy, so no matter really exists, and
what we "see" as matter is really 'consciousness'. Somehow we are all
connected in this grand consciousness. This all seems to make perfect
sense to me until we begin thinking about "sin" and blood sacrifice,
and all the other moral precepts of our faith. In my opinion, Quantum
Mechanics PROVES the existence of God, but what about Jesus,
salvation, satan, hell and the rest? A God who created the universe
being concerned about whether I hold a grudge or not seems implausable
and in some ways, prideful. I just finished reading a wonderful book
called "The Science of God" by Gerald Schroeder which answered many
questions I had about evolution and scripture. In the book, he refers
to Kabbalh and some of it's principles. I began looking into that but
stopped when I read references to reincarnation. I find reincarnation
mutually exclusive to Christianity as we do not need a savior if we
are coming back to fix our mistakes in another life. I see all of the
miracles attributed to Jesus reasonable in light of quantum theory,
but the whole doctrine of "salvation" seems archaic and mythological
at best. Was Jesus "God's" "son"? How can pure energy or
consciousness have a "son"? Why do we need to have the whole
sacrifice thing? Couldn't a being who created the intricate universe
just "forgive" us? Which leads me to other questions of Cosmology and
Astronomy... It seems ridiculous (in a scientific sense) to believe
that we are the only sentient creatures in the universe... Is Jesus
their savior too?, or do they have their own savior?
I realize that these are a lot of questions for a "newbie", but can
anyone help me make sense out of all of this? I would appreciate any
help you can give me....I was really shocked that there was even such
a group as yours out there... I thought I was alone with all my
questions.... Nice to meet you---- Marianna in Jacksonville, FL
__._,_.___
Messag
25 July 2006 10:35:35 PM
To: religionandscience@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Bede's Library] Quantum Mechanics and our Christian Faith
Dear Friend, Marianna,
I like the concept that you find science proving the scripture:
but let me explain how I find the scripture proving science.
In fact I live by the maxim that if your science and your religion disagree, maybe you need to change your science.
The way I see it is:
The initial primordial energy is God.
God expanded 'under' creation, such that his energy is present in every atom of the muiltiverse.
This you believe as you have said, quantum science indicates the presence of God.
Further, in simple terms, I believe there is no place you can hide from God.
God is present in all his creation.
Further, all scripture needs to work at all levels (of intelligence)
Some of what I might say might seem simplistic: it needs to be....
other is from a scientific understanding.
Yet more is from scripture, tell me if you need references..I am trying to make this readable, in the first instance...
When God created MAN, men and women, he had a plan for them much different than how it panned out.
'Prior' to the creation of people, there was a heaven full of angelic beings which we call spiritual, I call 'other dimensional'.
Some of these developed in an evil direction, and were known as 'fallen angels'.
Satan was the chief of these.
Satan, thru the 'serpent', convinced Adam and Eve to get involved, to partake of the fruit, of good and evil.
This was available to them but forbidden by God, as was the tree of life, ( of immortality).
Some have said, what a pity Adam and Eve didnt partake of the tree of life first.It would have changed everything.
But that was forbidden too.
{ So I think he had a much higher purpose for men, and a much higher purpose for women.
Adam and Eves punishments were to do things which have become our way of life, and dear to us...
we men love to work the ground in our gardens and farms, you women love to look after family and husbands.
we have come to love our penalty; but it was not always to be: maybe women were to produce children for God ( as in Mary)
Maybe men were to walk with God in the garden while the animals under his domain did all the work, like the birds and the bees do today, only more so.
It tests the imagination to wonder what might have been, but John in Revelation had a vision of what it will be on the new earth... possibly as it might have been if not for Satan.}
Gods intentions of being their friend and god were frustrated by this.
From that moment Satan gained the control of MAN and man became his property. Man belonged to Satan, he is our natural father...( John 8.41..)
From then on the will of God was continually frustrated by Satan. Indeed Satan acted, God reacted. See the scriptures, you will find how sin so permeated the world, God repented that he had made it. Everything happened was caused by Satan, reacted to by God.
Sacrifices were made by men to atone for their sins.
Effectively they bought themselves out of debt by paying for their wrongs by giving their most precious property in lieu of themselves.
Who were they paying? They werent paying God.
He said ...what good is the blood of bulls and goats to me? I dont need to eat it.
God, thru man, was paying off Satan.
The only way God could buy back immortality for mankind was to pay with his own self. To sacrifice his own self.
So as an answer to the trickery of Satan, the supreme evil, he sold himself, the supreme good, to pay once and for all, for mans original and ongoing sin.
He became a man, this was an offshoot of himself therefore known as his son. But as it says in John he Jesus created the world. He is God.
God is multi dimensional, so many facets we cant imagine, so it is simple that God can be everywhere at once, be God and a human, know everything, can create at will, stuff up your computer, protect you, love you, whatever.
But after God produced himself as Christ and died as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices, as the payment for all sin, things changed.
And to WHOM IS THE PAYMENT MADE?
The payment is not made by God to God. That would achieve nothing.
The payment has to be at ARMS LENGTH.
The payment was to the opposite number, Satan.
From then on, God made the initiative, Satan reacted. Think about it, look at the scripture. There is an essay, post no.57 on that at
www.science-vs-religion-christian-view.blogspot.com , ( this site )
Now God is bringing Israel back together, he has a mechanism for regaining the immortality of man, and better still, he has paid such a price that even all the Gentiles can obtain immortality with him. Satan is on the back foot but he will accentuate evil in the world in a desperate attempt to regain the upper hand. Evil will be hard to resist, but God has paid the price already. Satan will not win the war for immortality of man. Eventually he will be beaten down and chained.
As far as other civilisations go, I dont have any beliefs. Some would say, does it matter?
Well yes, maybe it does. To the bothe civilisations at least, and to God. But we are not given any scripture on it.
But it would depend on whether Satan infiltrated Martians and Venusians or whatever, as to whether a price had to be paid for their redemption.
It would be hoped not.
Because Gods time is not our time ( another post on that site),time is not 2-dimensional in Gods realm, maybe more like spherical but without limits....we cant just say we hope God is a quick learner and the Earth debacle would not be repeated elsewhere.
It may be that it happened in an infinite number of places , even concurrently.
Maybe not.
It may be we are unique, and why not?
It may be, you are unique, and why not?
It may be, God wanted you to ask these questions, and I am sure I have to answer them, this is currently my lot.
I hope you can get in touch with me, any of you, and we can develop these thoughts.
Ross
Thank you Ross, that makes salvation a bit clearer. It makes sense that God had to "pay" Satan off... but why didn't he just destroy him after the Garden incident? Do you believe in a literal "tree of knowledge"? Thank you for your insights, I can go back to talking to Jesus again... I have missed him...
On 24/07/2006, at 12:52 PM, professionalmom2004 wrote:
Hello,
I found this group while searching the web for information regarding
quantum mechanics and Christianity. I am having a "crisis of faith"
and I hope that some of you can shed some light on my dilemma.
I have been a Christian for 32 years (since age 8) Suffice it to say
that my head knowledge of Theology has many times caused conflict with
my heart knowledge of God. Having read and studied the Bible and
being an avid reader of science, I have recently been giving a lot of
thought and research time to the understanding of Quantum Mechanical
Theory and Christianity. I first became aware of the conflict when I
saw the movie " What the Bleep do we know?" and read the book as well.
In the end, all matter is energy, so no matter really exists, and
what we "see" as matter is really 'consciousness'. Somehow we are all
connected in this grand consciousness. This all seems to make perfect
sense to me until we begin thinking about "sin" and blood sacrifice,
and all the other moral precepts of our faith. In my opinion, Quantum
Mechanics PROVES the existence of God, but what about Jesus,
salvation, satan, hell and the rest? A God who created the universe
being concerned about whether I hold a grudge or not seems implausable
and in some ways, prideful. I just finished reading a wonderful book
called "The Science of God" by Gerald Schroeder which answered many
questions I had about evolution and scripture. In the book, he refers
to Kabbalh and some of it's principles. I began looking into that but
stopped when I read references to reincarnation. I find reincarnation
mutually exclusive to Christianity as we do not need a savior if we
are coming back to fix our mistakes in another life. I see all of the
miracles attributed to Jesus reasonable in light of quantum theory,
but the whole doctrine of "salvation" seems archaic and mythological
at best. Was Jesus "God's" "son"? How can pure energy or
consciousness have a "son"? Why do we need to have the whole
sacrifice thing? Couldn't a being who created the intricate universe
just "forgive" us? Which leads me to other questions of Cosmology and
Astronomy... It seems ridiculous (in a scientific sense) to believe
that we are the only sentient creatures in the universe... Is Jesus
their savior too?, or do they have their own savior?
I realize that these are a lot of questions for a "newbie", but can
anyone help me make sense out of all of this? I would appreciate any
help you can give me....I was really shocked that there was even such
a group as yours out there... I thought I was alone with all my
questions.... Nice to meet you---- Marianna in Jacksonville, FL
__._,_.___
Messag
25 July 2006 10:35:35 PM
To: religionandscience@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Bede's Library] Quantum Mechanics and our Christian Faith
Dear Friend, Marianna,
I like the concept that you find science proving the scripture:
but let me explain how I find the scripture proving science.
In fact I live by the maxim that if your science and your religion disagree, maybe you need to change your science.
The way I see it is:
The initial primordial energy is God.
God expanded 'under' creation, such that his energy is present in every atom of the muiltiverse.
This you believe as you have said, quantum science indicates the presence of God.
Further, in simple terms, I believe there is no place you can hide from God.
God is present in all his creation.
Further, all scripture needs to work at all levels (of intelligence)
Some of what I might say might seem simplistic: it needs to be....
other is from a scientific understanding.
Yet more is from scripture, tell me if you need references..I am trying to make this readable, in the first instance...
When God created MAN, men and women, he had a plan for them much different than how it panned out.
'Prior' to the creation of people, there was a heaven full of angelic beings which we call spiritual, I call 'other dimensional'.
Some of these developed in an evil direction, and were known as 'fallen angels'.
Satan was the chief of these.
Satan, thru the 'serpent', convinced Adam and Eve to get involved, to partake of the fruit, of good and evil.
This was available to them but forbidden by God, as was the tree of life, ( of immortality).
Some have said, what a pity Adam and Eve didnt partake of the tree of life first.It would have changed everything.
But that was forbidden too.
{ So I think he had a much higher purpose for men, and a much higher purpose for women.
Adam and Eves punishments were to do things which have become our way of life, and dear to us...
we men love to work the ground in our gardens and farms, you women love to look after family and husbands.
we have come to love our penalty; but it was not always to be: maybe women were to produce children for God ( as in Mary)
Maybe men were to walk with God in the garden while the animals under his domain did all the work, like the birds and the bees do today, only more so.
It tests the imagination to wonder what might have been, but John in Revelation had a vision of what it will be on the new earth... possibly as it might have been if not for Satan.}
Gods intentions of being their friend and god were frustrated by this.
From that moment Satan gained the control of MAN and man became his property. Man belonged to Satan, he is our natural father...( John 8.41..)
From then on the will of God was continually frustrated by Satan. Indeed Satan acted, God reacted. See the scriptures, you will find how sin so permeated the world, God repented that he had made it. Everything happened was caused by Satan, reacted to by God.
Sacrifices were made by men to atone for their sins.
Effectively they bought themselves out of debt by paying for their wrongs by giving their most precious property in lieu of themselves.
Who were they paying? They werent paying God.
He said ...what good is the blood of bulls and goats to me? I dont need to eat it.
God, thru man, was paying off Satan.
The only way God could buy back immortality for mankind was to pay with his own self. To sacrifice his own self.
So as an answer to the trickery of Satan, the supreme evil, he sold himself, the supreme good, to pay once and for all, for mans original and ongoing sin.
He became a man, this was an offshoot of himself therefore known as his son. But as it says in John he Jesus created the world. He is God.
God is multi dimensional, so many facets we cant imagine, so it is simple that God can be everywhere at once, be God and a human, know everything, can create at will, stuff up your computer, protect you, love you, whatever.
But after God produced himself as Christ and died as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices, as the payment for all sin, things changed.
And to WHOM IS THE PAYMENT MADE?
The payment is not made by God to God. That would achieve nothing.
The payment has to be at ARMS LENGTH.
The payment was to the opposite number, Satan.
From then on, God made the initiative, Satan reacted. Think about it, look at the scripture. There is an essay, post no.57 on that at
www.science-vs-religion-christian-view.blogspot.com , ( this site )
Now God is bringing Israel back together, he has a mechanism for regaining the immortality of man, and better still, he has paid such a price that even all the Gentiles can obtain immortality with him. Satan is on the back foot but he will accentuate evil in the world in a desperate attempt to regain the upper hand. Evil will be hard to resist, but God has paid the price already. Satan will not win the war for immortality of man. Eventually he will be beaten down and chained.
As far as other civilisations go, I dont have any beliefs. Some would say, does it matter?
Well yes, maybe it does. To the bothe civilisations at least, and to God. But we are not given any scripture on it.
But it would depend on whether Satan infiltrated Martians and Venusians or whatever, as to whether a price had to be paid for their redemption.
It would be hoped not.
Because Gods time is not our time ( another post on that site),time is not 2-dimensional in Gods realm, maybe more like spherical but without limits....we cant just say we hope God is a quick learner and the Earth debacle would not be repeated elsewhere.
It may be that it happened in an infinite number of places , even concurrently.
Maybe not.
It may be we are unique, and why not?
It may be, you are unique, and why not?
It may be, God wanted you to ask these questions, and I am sure I have to answer them, this is currently my lot.
I hope you can get in touch with me, any of you, and we can develop these thoughts.
Ross
Thank you Ross, that makes salvation a bit clearer. It makes sense that God had to "pay" Satan off... but why didn't he just destroy him after the Garden incident? Do you believe in a literal "tree of knowledge"? Thank you for your insights, I can go back to talking to Jesus again... I have missed him...
posted by Ross at 10:43 pm
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