Sunday, August 27, 2006

162. Spirit, Gravity, Light: the answer

Ross Gasking

We looked at The speed of light before...300 000 Km per second, 186 000 miles per second.
And we looked at the speed of spiritual interaction, and my guess is it is "instantaneous" , i.e. it takes no time at all to get right across the universe.
Now hear ye this:Science so far has absolutely no idea how gravity works, so the upshot of that is that any workable theory of how gravity works is as good or better than any scientists theory which doesnt work.
Now it seems fairly likely that the speed of gravity is "instantaneous', also.
Like Spirit.

Would it then be a fair thing to connect the properties of spirit and gravity?
Well, we already made a connection with God and light.
The problem with the speed of light is that, correct me if I am wrong, and you have all the answers, but I question whether light travelling at 300 000kps has had enough time to travel across the universe, let alone the whole of Creation, which if infinite in size would take an eternity to cross.

So I have discussed the concept of the nature of God as being present throughout all his creation, an idea embraced by Panentheists.
This says that God, being present in all His creation, may in fact be a part of it. Indeed may be it. And definitely is a candidate for being the energy of the atom, in my humble opinion.
Remember that 1 kg of matter contains energy to the value of 25 000 million kwh.

Hence I suggest that,. if God IS the universe , then the concept of gravity is as simple as one part of a body working the muscle to another part of a body. So gravity, in kindergarten terms, is like, or is, Gods muscles
That would entirely answer the problem of how gravity can work instantaneously between the sun and Pluto.
And it works for me. In a hundred years time, someone will invent this concept.
Remember you read it here first.

Wednesday, August 16, 2006

161. Love, scientifically speaking

Ross Gasking

This post is extracted from ..www.newscientist.com

Instant Expert: Love

The word love appears in many contexts: there’s maternal love, familial love, romantic love, sexual love, a wider love for fellow humans and religious love for God, to name but a few. Some cultures have ten or more words for different forms of love, and poets and songwriters always find myriad aspects of love to celebrate.

The science of love is still in its infancy. Yet scientists are beginning to get early insights into the nature and origin of love. We can now look inside human brains to view changing patterns of activity and biochemical changes that take place during love, explore diverse human experiences of love, study how we select mates and woo lovers, and look for the evolutionary roots of love.

Addicted to love

So what exactly is going on during the rollercoaster of euphoria and despair that is falling in love?

In the brain, romantic love shows similarities to going mildly insane or suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder. Studies show that when you first fall in love, serotonin levels plummet and the brain's reward centres are flooded with dopamine. This gives a high similar to an addictive drug, creating powerful links in our minds between pleasure and the object of our affection, and meaning we crave the hit of our beloved again and again.

Lust is driven by sex hormones such as testosterone, which can go off-kilter too. As can levels of the stress hormone cortisol, and the amphetamine-like chemical phenylethlyamine, increasing excitement.

Other hormones, oxytocin and vasopressin, kick in later and appear to be crucial for forming long-term partnerships. Couples who have been together for several years show increased brain activity associated with these chemicals, when they look at pictures of their partner. Oxytocin is produced when couples have sex and touch, kiss and massage each other - the hormone makes us more trusting, helps overcome "social fear" and is important for bonding.

Brain scans of people in love show that the old adage "love is blind" really is true. While the dopamine reward areas are excited in love, regions linked with negative emotions and critical social judgement switch off.

Sexual chemistry

Making the right choice when finding true love is an important business, so how do we go about selecting a mate?

Many factors add up to make us desirable to potential partners. There's the obvious stuff like symmetrical features and good skin - which showcase a healthy development, immune system and good genes. Women look for tall men with masculine faces, kindness, wealth and status. Men prefer young, fertile women with a low waist-to-hip ratio and who are not too tall. Neither sex is very keen on people who wear glasses.

Beauty can come at a price however.

Other factors are less obvious. Research suggests that humans are attracted to partners who resemble themselves and - slightly disconcertingly - their parents too. Smell appears to be important as well; people are often more attracted to the smell of those who have different combinations of some immune system (MHC) genes to themselves. Mates with dissimilar MHC genes produce healthier offspring that are better able to thwart disease. People with similar MHC genes even prefer the same perfumes.

Suitors of some species such as birds, and even mice, attract their mates with complex songs or showy displays. Intelligence and talent are prized by people too. As are expensive gifts and even cheap love tokens. Even being in a relationship can make you more attractive to potential mates.

Other factors are more random - a woman's attractiveness and pheromones can fluctuate with her hormone levels and menstrual cycle. As a consequence, taking the pill can inhibit a woman's ability to select an appropriate mate.

In concert, these many factors mean the path to true love can be somewhat unpredictable.

Many people with hectic lifestyles today are turning to the internet, online lonely hearts, dating websites and speed dating to help them track down a partner. Love by wire may have started much longer ago however. See here for six tips to woo your lover.

Love evolution

The various forms of love probably have a common evolutionary beginning, so where are scientists looking? Maternal love seems a good place to start. Biologically it makes perfect sense. In animals which help their offspring to survive, the bond is essential to passing the mother’s genes on to the next generation.

Again oxytocin may have an important role in the development of a bond between a mother and child. Another hormone, prolactin, may prime both mothers and fathers for parenthood.

Unlike maternal love, monogamous bonds between males and females are pretty rare in mammals. Less than 5% are monogamous, and there is no clear pattern to help explain why it occasionally appears. Monogamy, it appears, is mostly for the birds.

It seems that in those rare mammals that do practise it, evolution stole the biochemistry and neural tricks that bond mother to infant and reinstalled them, so as to bind male and female together. One study of prairie voles shows that a species could be turned from promiscuous to devoted with a change in a single gene related to vasopressin.

Whatever romantic love's origins and purpose, long-term relationships are certainly important in keeping us content and happy.

And love is not only restricted to partnerships between men and women. Though gay relationships are different in some ways, they could be the glue that holds societies together.

Heart-breaking

Unfortunately, it's not all wine and roses when it comes to love. Ecstasy, euphoria, elation and contentment may be accompanied by jealousy, rage, rejection, and hatred.

Falling in love may have evolved because people who focus their attention on a single ideal partner save time and energy, therefore improve their chances of survival and reproduction. Unfortunately, this also means people are pre-disposed to terrible suffering when jilted by their beloved.

Painful emotions develop when the reward centres of the brain, associated with the dopamine high of falling in love, fail to get their hit. Paradoxically when we get dumped we tend to love back even harder, as the brain networks and chemicals associated with love increase. First we protest and attempt to win the beloved back. Panic also kicks in as we feel something akin to the separation anxiety experiences by young mammals abandoned by their mothers.

Then love can turn to anger and hate, as the regions associated with reward are closely linked to rage in the brain. Finally when jilted lovers are resigned to their fate, they will often enter into prolonged periods of depression and despair.

These negative emotions can spawn anything from obsession and domestic violence to stalking and even murder of supposed loved ones.

While such behaviours may be classed as pathological, and perhaps rare, the truth is that they are closer to home than we dare contemplate. Passion’s thrills resemble obsessive-compulsive disorder, but in some people, love can conjure up something much more sinister.

The chances of a relationship succeeding would seem to be difficult to predict, but one study suggests that divorce may be partially genetically predetermined. There are even mathematical formulas for predicting the chances of divorce - and for equitably dividing up possessions.

Nevertheless, psychologists have some simple tips for making our relationships last.

John Pickrell, Lucy Middleton and Alun Anderson, 28 April 2006

160. This Blog will change direction

There is a finite course for this blog. Its most usable current feature is as a readymade resource to post my thoughts to other groups. So I intend to move the relevant posts to a new YAHOO group, while this BLOG will stay out there forever.
Anyone seriously wanting to contact me may do so at my email contact here or at the new GROUP:

Ross@8i.com

SCIENCEwith SCRIPTURE@yahoogroups.com

SCIENCEwithSCRIPTURE-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Thankyou

Thursday, August 03, 2006

159. When the sun stopped ( repeat)

FROM AN INTERNET SITE; not my opinion

"So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
-Joshua 10:13b

Although we believe that biblical account of Joshua's Long Day is true, the claim that NASA has proven it is an old urban myth.
Actually, the claim that astronomical calculations proved that a day was 'missing' began over a century ago. In the last few decades, the myth has been embellished with NASA computers performing those calculations.

No one who repeats this story has ever provided details of these calculations - how exactly was this missing day discovered? This should automatically make people cautious. How could you detect a missing day unless you had a fixed reference point before this day?

In fact we would need to cross check between both astronomical and historical records to detect any missing day. And to detect a missing 40 minutes requires that these reference points are known to within an accuracy of a few minutes.

It is certainly true that the timing of solar eclipses observable from a certain location can be known precisely. But the ancient records did not record time that precisely, so the required cross check is simply not possible. Anyway, the earliest historically recorded eclipse occurred in 1217 BC, nearly two centuries after Joshua.

There is so much good evidence for the truth of creation and the Bible that we don't need to resort to embellishments and urban myths.


FROM AN INTERNET SITE; not my opinion

The Lost Day




Claim: NASA scientists discovered a "missing" day in time that corresponds to Biblical accounts of the sun's standing still in the sky.
Status: False.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 1999]


For all the scientists out there and for all the students who have a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible . . . here's something that shows God's awesome creation and shows that He is still in control.
Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been called "myth" in the Bible is true? Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore Maryland and a consultant in the space program, relates the following development.

"I think one of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at GreenBelt, Maryland. They were checking the position of the sun, moon, and planets out in space where they would be 100 years and 1000 years from now. We have to know this so we won't send a satellite, up and have it bump into something later on in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite, and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down.

They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the centuries and it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red signal, which meant that there was something wrong either with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. They called in the service department to check it out and they said, "What's wrong?"

Well, they found there is a day missing in space in elapsed time. They scratched their heads and tore their hair. There was no answer.

Finally, a Christian man on the team said, "You know, one time I was in Sunday School and they talked about the sun standing still." While they didn't believe him, they didn't have an answer either, so they said, "Show us."

He got a Bible and went back to the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with "common sense." There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, "Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee."

Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the enemy and if darkness fell they would overpower them. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That's right — "The sun stood still and the moon stayed — and hasted not to go down about a whole day!" (Joshua 10:12-13)

The astronauts and scientists said, "There is the missing day!" They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it was close but not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes — not a whole day.

They read the Bible and there it was "about (approximately) a day" These little words in the Bible are important, but they were still in trouble because if you cannot account for 40 minutes you'll still be in trouble 1,000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits.

As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings that told of the following story:

Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that he was not going to die.

Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof. Isaiah said "Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?" Hezekiah said "It is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10 degrees."

Isaiah spoke to the Lord and the Lord brought the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD!

Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes! Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the universe!" Isn't it amazing?



Origins: Folks

have been awestruck by the "missing day" legend since 1936, when the story emerged into popular culture via a book by Harry Rimmer, titled The Harmony of Science and Scripture. In it, Rimmer cited an 1890 book as his proof of the calculations behind the tale. Scholars dismissed Rimmer's claims as baseless, but despite the authoritative debunkings of the time and in the years since, the legend thrives. Indeed, the Internet has given it new legs; spreading it to new audiences is as easy as clicking the 'forward' button.

The appeal of this legend isn't difficult to see — the tale confirms not only the existence of God, but also the literal truth of the Bible. Moreover, it pits the scientists versus the believers, with the believers emerging victorious and the (presumed godless) scientists left ground into dust by the very science they'd so long and so loudly upheld. David (in the form of the pure-hearted believer) takes on the Goliath of Science who continally bleats for independently verifiable proof of the Almighty, and for once the faithful are able to deliver up on a silver platter what's been asked for.

To those who've given over their hearts to God and the Holy Word, this is a deeply satisfying legend. Faith is, after all, the firm belief in something for which no proof exists, a quality that can leave believers — especially those who find themselves in the midst of non-believers — feeling unsatisfied. As steadfast as their certainty is, they cannot prove the rightness of the path they tread to those who jeer at their convictions. And this is a heavy burden to shoulder. A legend such as the "missing day explained" tale speaks straight to the hearts of those who yearn for a bit of vindication in this life. Being right isn't always enough — sometimes what one most longs for is sweet recognition from others.

That recognition, and that satisfaction, is what this legend provides. Intoxicatingly heady stuff, that. No wonder this tale has survived from generation to generation and withstood the ravages of countless debunkings. Nonetheless, its factual details are wrong, the scientific processes it describes are dubious, and its premise of a "missing day" depends upon some very selective and questionable intepretations of scripture.

The notion of a "lost day" in time is taken from a combination of two Old Testament passages. The first is from the Book of Joshua and describes Joshua's defense of Gibeon from the five kings of the Amorites. In order to enable Joshua to finish off his enemies before they had a chance to flee under cover of darkness, God provided additional daylight by causing the sun to stand still in the sky for nearly a day:


10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day

The second passage, from 2 Kings, describes Hezekiah's request that God move the sun ten degrees backwards as confirmation of his promise that Nezekiah would be delivered into Heaven:


20:8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

[NOTE: All passages above are quoted from the King James Version.]

One of the first issues we have to consider is that the Bible is thousands of years old, and the accounts it contains have come to us through many oral tellings, re-copyings, printings, and translations. We have to be very careful about presenting a specific interpretation of a single English word or phrase from one particular version of the Bible as being "what the Bible actually says." Therefore, the first difficulty this legend presents is that nowhere in the Bible (in the Book of Joshua or elsewhere) is it stated that God made the sun stand still for exactly 23 hours and 20 minutes. Various translations word Joshua 10:13 differently, but most agree that the sun stood still for something less than a day: "about a whole day" or "nearly a day." We're told nothing more specific — "about a whole day" could also mean 22 hours and 48 minutes or 23 hours and 2 minutes; we have no way of telling. (The primary means of reckoning the passage of time in Joshua's era was by observing the apparent movement of celestial bodies through the sky relative to the observer. It's not likely any contemporary of Joshua's could have recorded the length of time the sun stood still with this degree of precision under the best of circumstances, and certainly not when the sun and moon were both fixed in the sky, and the sun's light prevented the sighting of any other stars.) As it turns out, the "23 hours and 20 minutes" figure was almost certainly an amount of time chosen by the legend's originator for extra-scriptual reasons we'll explain later.

The next difficulty is the interpretation presented in this legend of the statement in 2 Kings 20 about God's moving "the shadow" backwards "ten degrees" as meaning that the sun's shadow was moved backwards through ten angular degrees of measurement on a dial (presumably a sundial). Since a dial is a circle, and a circle contains 360 degrees, moving the sun's shadow backwards ten degrees would correspond to resetting time by one thirty-sixth of day. One thirty-sixth of a twenty-four hour day is two-thirds of an hour, or forty minutes. Voilà! The problem is, 2 Kings 20 doesn't quite say this — the word "degree" is an artifact of certain English translations. How this passage is presented in other translations is more general: that the sun's shadow moved backwards ten steps (or ten units or ten intervals or ten markings) on the "dial of Ahaz." Since we have no idea exactly what the "dial of Ahaz" was, nor how much time was represented by one of its units, we cannot make any real estimate as to how far the sun actually moved. (If the dial of Ahaz had forty evenly-spaced markings on it, for example, ten of those units would represent one-fourth of a day, or six hours.)

We can only speculate, but it seems likely that once the originator of this legend decided upon an interpretation of 2 Kings 20 that created a "lost" 40 minutes of time, he also decided that the "about a whole day" described in Joshua 10 was a period of exactly 23 hours and 20 minutes so that the two amounts combined would equal exactly one day (even though a day is actually slightly longer than 24 hours). Why? Perhaps because God is associated with balance and perfection, and any natural process that appears ordered is often attributed to divine handiwork. If scientists discovered a "missing" 23 hours and 18 minutes, that could be taken as some random fluke of the cosmos, but if the "missing" period were exactly one day, that would be evidence of a directed celestial intervention by a higher power.

Regardless of the amount of time involved, the discovery of a "missing" period of time remains implausible. If the sun had indeed stood still for a day a few millennia ago, we would have no way of determining that fact through astronomic observations today. We have no frame of reference, no "cosmic calendar" or "master clock" to check against to see if we're overdrawn at the Bank of Time. The concept described here would be like giving someone a non-functioning clock and asking him to determine how much time had elapsed since the clock had stopped running. One could note the positions of the hands on the dial and make a reasonable guess about what the time of day was when the clock stopped running, but without knowing whether that time was A.M. or P.M., and without knowing the calendar date on which stoppage occurred, one could not possibly make any reasonable estimate about how long ago the clock stopped.

Even the putative reasons offered for the scientists' performing the calculations described in this legend make little sense. We need not know about any "missing time" in the past in order to be able to launch spacecraft today. Even if the sun really did once stand still for a day, that would have absolutely no effect on where the sun, the moon, or the other planets are going to be one hundred or one thousand years from now. If we put a new battery in our stopped clock, all we have to do to get it back on track is to set it to the correct time — we don't need to determine how much time the clock "lost" while it wasn't running to be assured that it will display the correct time in the future.

Although the notion of a "lost day" in time has been circulating for well over a century, the version cited here — the one that has been bedevilling NASA since the 1960s — achieved pre-eminence through the tireless efforts of Mr. Harold Hill, who was indeed both a real person and the President of the Curtis Engine Company. However, he had no real connection to NASA, he was not a "consultant in the space program," and he did not witness the events described. Mr. Hill heard a "lost day" legend that had been circulating for many years, embellished it with some details about NASA scientists, and delighted in repeating it when speaking before school groups. His version of the legend made its way into various church bulletins and was eventually picked up and spread by the mainstream media as well, and he devoted a whole chapter to it in his 1974 book, How to Live Like a King’s Kid. (This book lent additional credibility to his tenuous NASA connections — and thus to the legend itself -- when he stated that he "was involved [in the space program] from the start, through contractual arrangements with my company." His "involvement" was merely that the Curtis Engine Company had a contract with NASA to service electrical generators.) Even Hill's admission that he hadn't actually witnessed the events he described clearly wasn't intended to dissuade anyone from believing in the literal truthfulness of his story: "[M]y inability to furnish documentation of the 'Missing day' incident in no way detracts from its authenticity."

Authenticity matters little, though — our willingness to accept legends depends far more upon their expression of concepts we want to believe than upon their plausibility. If the sun once really did stand still for a day, the best evidence we'd have for proving it would be the accounts of people who saw it happen. That is what the Bible is said to offer. Some of us accept that, and some of us don't.

Last updated: 25 February 2000


The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm
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Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2003
by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
This material may not be reproduced without permission

Sources:
Hill, Harold. How to Live Like a King’s Kid.
South Plainfield, NJ: Bridge Publishing, 1974. ISBN 0-393-30711-5 (pp. 65-77).

Morgan, Hal and Kerry Tucker. More Rumor!
New York: Penguin Books, 1987. ISBN 0-14-009720-1 (pp. 44-46).

Rimmer, Harry. The Harmony of Science and Scripture.
Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1936 (pp. 266-280).

Also told in:
The Big Book of Urban Legends.
New York: Paradox Press, 1994. ISBN 1-56389-165-4 (p. 192).


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*******



"So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
-Joshua 10:13b

Although we believe that biblical account of Joshua's Long Day is true, the claim that NASA has proven it is an old urban myth.
Actually, the claim that astronomical calculations proved that a day was 'missing' began over a century ago. In the last few decades, the myth has been embellished with NASA computers performing those calculations.

No one who repeats this story has ever provided details of these calculations - how exactly was this missing day discovered? This should automatically make people cautious. How could you detect a missing day unless you had a fixed reference point before this day?

In fact we would need to cross check between both astronomical and historical records to detect any missing day. And to detect a missing 40 minutes requires that these reference points are known to within an accuracy of a few minutes.

It is certainly true that the timing of solar eclipses observable from a certain location can be known precisely. But the ancient records did not record time that precisely, so the required cross check is simply not possible. Anyway, the earliest historically recorded eclipse occurred in 1217 BC, nearly two centuries after Joshua.

There is so much good evidence for the truth of creation and the Bible that we don't need to resort to embellishments and urban myths.







"So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since..."
--Joshua 10:13-14


In Joshua 10, the Bible tells the story of the day when the sun--and time--stopped. The Israelites were fighting the Amorites in Canaan. During the battle, Joshua prayed for the sun and moon to stop, so he would have extra daylight to finish the task. Scripture records that this prayer was answered: The sun "delayed going down about a full day" (v. 13). The very objects in the sky that the Amorites worshipped fought against them!
Several modern interpretations of the story have been suggested:

Some say there was no actual miracle, but only the use of poetic language. The Israelites had fought so hard that it just seemed like two days of work in a row!
Others propose that a cloud shaded the sun, keeping the day cool enough for the fighting to continue all through the afternoon. However, this relief from the heat would have benefited the enemy as much as Israel.
Similarly, a solar eclipse has been suggested as causing reduced sunlight. But eclipses of the sun last for only a few minutes, not a whole day.
All of these explanations fall far short of the statement that there has never been another day like the one described (Joshua 10:14, cf. Habbakuk 3:11 - "...Sun and moon stood still in the heavens...").
What really happened on that special day? As with all miracles, it is futile to speculate with scientific theories. The details are unclear, but we know that God could have refracted the light, or slowed the earth's rotation, or stopped the entire universe--all with equal ease!

Time stopped for Joshua, and it ran backwards for Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:9-11).

God used this event as a special sign to show Hezekiah that he would regain his health. The sun's shadow moved backwards by ten steps, probably five to six hours on the sundial. That is, the sun appeared to move eastward instead of westward. The conclusion is again the same, that such a miracle is beyond scientific explanation.

God may have temporarily reversed the earth's rotation, including all its inhabitants, or the miracle in Hezekiah's day could have been local instead of worldwide. The latter view is supported by 2 Chronicles 32:31, which describes envoys who traveled to the land where the miracle occurred.

Joshua and Hezekiah both made lofty requests of the Lord, that the very heavens might be altered. And God answered their prayers. The sun, moon, and stars obey the Creator who placed them in the sky by the power of his word.


*****

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?


From THE BLUE LETTER BIBLE: a more balanced commentary than random www sites




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Did The Sun Actually Stand Still In Joshua's Long Day?
Whenever the subject arises concerning biblical events and their relationship to science, the story of Joshua and the sun standing still is usually brought up. It is one of the favorite texts of unbelievers to demonstrate the ignorance of the writers of Scripture.

Sun Stood Still

In the tenth chapter of the Book of Joshua the following account is recorded:

Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hastened to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded a voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel (Joshua 10:12-14).

We know that the sun does not move around the earth causing day and night but rather the earth revolves around the sun. Why did Joshua address the sun rather than the earth? Did he believe the sun actually moved?

Language Of Appearance

As we have already mentioned, Scripture speaks in the language of appearance, the language of observation. From our point of view here on earth the sun does rise in the morning and set at night. From that vantage point Joshua addresses the sun with his request. Marten Woodstra, Old Testament authority, writes:

The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, The Book of Joshua, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175).

Scientifically Accurate?

Some people feel that Joshua made a scientifically accurate request.

We might say, "How little Joshua knew." But he knew his God! He knew that God had promised to go before His people to fight their battles and give them victory (Joshua 10:8). And in this battle he saw victory in its grasp, but time was running out. If he didnt conquer the enemy before dark, they would regroup and attack Israel the next day.

Knowing his God, his Gods power, and his Gods promise, he called out to God for help, and in the presence of all Israel, he commanded the "sun to stand still." But the sun was already standing still, Joshua. It is the earth that moves, not the sun. Why didnt Joshua cry out, "Earth quit moving," or "Earth, slow down your spinning on your axis to prolong time."

Joshua had no idea that his command slowed down 6.6 sextrillion tons of spinning gravel and water to give Israel victory over her enemies. But Joshua did know something that God had revealed to him. Over 3,000 years ago he said something that would have met the approval of todays scientific establishment. His command in the Hebrew language was not "Sun, stand thou still," but "Sun, cease acting, or "Sun, stop working." It was then that the gravitational pull of the sun affected the earth. It was then the earth began to slow down and the day was lengthened (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1983 p. 124).

This argument is rather weak. It is not necessary to assume Joshua was scientifically sophisticated. It is more likely that God honored the spirit of his request than to assume Joshua had some scientific insight that was not shared by the people of his day.

Long Day Legends?

Some have argued that evidence for this long day is found in other cultures:
It is interesting to note that parallel accounts in the records of other nations show that the incident of "Joshuas Long Day" is not an isolated one. There is indisputable evidence from the modern science of ethnology that such an event occurred as Joshua records. In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record. There is a Babylonian and Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Herodotus, an ancient historian, recounts that while in Egypt, priest showed him their temple records, and that he read of a day which was twice the natural length of any day that had ever been recorded (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, pp. 122,123).

This, however, does not seem to be the case.

The record of the long day has been much debated. Parallels have been found in Chinese, Egyptian and Mexican stories, but these will not coincide with the date or time of day (E.W. Maunder, JTVI, 1921, pp. 120-148); and an astronomical aberration would not have gone unrecorded in Babylon (John Lilley, The New Laymans Bible Commentary, G.C.D. Howley, F.F. Bruce, H.L. Ellison, eds., Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979, pp. 320,321).

Many Questions

There are many questions that this account brings up. How are we to understand the phrase, "the sun stood still?" What was the nature of Joshuas command? Did he want more sunlight or less sunlight? Did he need more time to win the battle or did he need relief from the heat of the sun? If the earth actually stopped rotating for 24 hours would not incredible catastrophe occur to everything upon the planet?

Background

Before we examine the various views, it is important to know something of the background of the event. Joshuas army had marched all night from Gilgal to Gibeon, a distance of twenty miles, to do battle with their enemies.

Joshua needed the battle time prolonged because five strong kings had brought out their armies to fight his army in the open country. Joshua had the enemy on the run and he did not want them to get back to their fortified cities. More time was needed for his troops to catch them. To prevent their return more daylight was needed. Hence, he asked God to lengthen the day.

Sun Stopped

The text does say that the sun stopped. The Hebrew uses two words daman and amad which have the idea "to stop."

The word translated stand still (Heb dom) means literally to be silent and frequently has the sense cease or leave off (cf. Ps. 35:15; La. 2:18). Similarly the word translated stayed (Heb amad), stood still in v. 13b, has the sense of cease (cf. 2 Ki. 4:6; Jon. 1:15) (Hugh J. Blair, "Joshua," The New Bible Commentary Revised, D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman eds., Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press, Third Edition, 1970, p. 244).

The fact that Joshua asked the sun to stop is not the issue. The question is, "In what sense did the sun stop?"

What Happened?

Joshua gave the command for the sun to "stand still." There have been a number of ways in which commentators have sought to understand what occurred:

1. The passage is poetical and not to be understood literally.

2. The sun "standing still" refers to an eclipse of the sun.

3. The earth actually stopped its rotation around the sun for almost twenty-four hours per Joshuas request.

4. The earths rotation was slowed down, not stopped. This lengthened the day by almost twenty-four hours.

5. The sun and moon appeared to be out of their regular place by a supernaturally given mirage.

6. The sun stopped shining during the latter half of the day.

7. Rather than the day being prolonged, God prolonged the previous night.

We will look at each of these explanations and examine their strengths and weaknesses.

1. Poetical

There are some Bible students who see this account as being a poetical description of the battle and not to be taken literally. Donald H. Madvig notes:

The final statement in this verse [13] clearly favors the notion that the sun stood still or that it slowed down its course across the sky. In either event the problem for geophysics are so great that some other solution has been eagerly sought by scholars both liberal and conservative (Donald H. Madvig, "Joshua," The Expositors Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, General editor, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992, p. 303).

The Pulpit Commentary provides us with an example of interpreting the passage poetically:

The poetic form of this passage is clear to anyone who has the smallest acquaintance with the laws of Hebrew poetry . . . These words belong rather to the domain of poetry than history, and this language is that of hyperbole rather than the exact narration of facts (Pulpit Commentary, Volume 7, pp. 166,167).

Though couched in poetical language, it is clear from the text that some sign did occur in the heavens. The entire passage is written as a narrative of a miraculous event that actually happened. The question, therefore, is, "What is the nature of that event?"

2. Eclipse Of The Sun

Some feel the passage refers to an eclipse of the sun. One such person was the great Old Testament scholar, Robert Dick Wilson who translated Joshua 10:12b-14 as follows:
Be eclipsed, O sun, in Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Aijalon! And the sun was eclipsed and the moon turned back, while the nation was avenged on its enemies. It is not written in the Book of Jasher? And the sun stayed in the half of the heaven, and set not hastily as when a day is done. And there was never a day like that day before or since, in respect to Jehovahs hearing the voice of a man. (Robert Dick Wilson, "What Does The Sun Stood Still Mean? " Moody Monthly, October 1920).

According to this view, God granted Joshuas request for a favorable sign by causing an eclipse of the sun.

3. Earth Literally Stopped Rotating

Many have held that the earth actually stopped rotating for about twenty-four hours. From the peoples vantage point the sun would have appeared to have stopped. Though this would give Joshua the time to win the battle, it would also cause terrible catastrophes on the planet. Those who believe in the power of God realize that He could have prevented these catastrophes from occurring.

4. Slower Rotation Of Earth

Some read the text to mean that a retardation of the movement of the earth is what happened. Instead of taking twenty-four hours for one rotation, it took from thirty-six to forty-eight hours. This would have given Joshua and his armies sufficient daylight to win the battle over their enemies without causing the major disturbances that would have happened if the earth stopped rotating. Old Testament authority Gleason Archer writes:

It has been objected that if in fact the earth was stopped for a period of twenty-four hours, inconceivable catastrophe would have befallen the entire planet and everything on its surface. While those who believe in the omnipotence of God would hardly concede that Yahweh could not have prevented such catastrophe and held in abeyance the physical laws that might be brought to pass, it does not seem to be absolutely necessary (on the basis of the Hebrew text itself) to hold that the planet was suddenly halted in its rotation. Verse 13 states that the sun "did not hasten to go down for about a whole day" (NASB). The words "did not hasten" seem to point to a retardation of the movement so that the rotation required forty-eight hours rather than the usual twenty-four (Gleason Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1982, p. 161).

Donald K. Campbell concurs:

The best explanation seems to be the view that in answer to Joshuas prayer God caused the rotation of the earth to slow down so that it made one full rotation in 48 hours rather than in 24. It seems apparent that this view is supported by both the poem in verses 12b-13a and the prose in verse 13b (Donald K. Campbell, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, John Walvoord and Roy Zuck. eds., Wheaton, Illinois: Victor Books, 1985, p. 351).

God caused the rotation of the earth to slow down. The earth, therefore, made one full rotation around the sun in a longer period of time. This fits with verse 13 which says, "The sun . . . delayed going down about a full day." Thus the sun was abnormally slow in getting to sunset, giving Joshua and his soldiers sufficient time to complete their victorious battle.

5. Miracle Of Refraction

There are some who see this as a miracle of refraction. This theory contends the earth continued to rotate at its normal speed while God supernaturally gave a mirage that made it appear that the sun and the moon were out of their regular place. Thus, God supernaturally provided more daylight so that Joshua could win the battle. This provides Joshua with the necessary light to fight the battle, yet to do so does not force us to accept any change in the rotation of the earth.

6. Stop Moving Or Stop Shining?

Another view is that the prayer of Joshua was not for the prolongation of the day, but rather that the sun would cease pouring down its heat on him and his troops. The prayer was actually for the cessation of light, not its prolongation. God answered by sending a hailstorm that allowed Joshuas weary troops to win the battle. Thus stand still means to keep from shining. E.W. Maunder explains:

From what was it then that Joshua wished the sun to cease: from its moving or from its shining? It is not possible that, engaged as he was in a desperate battle, he was even so much as thinking of the suns motion at all. But its shining, its scorching heat, must have been most seriously felt by him. At noon, in high summer, southern Palestine is one of the hottest countries in the world. It is impossible to suppose Joshua wished for the sun to be fixed overhead, where it must have been distressing his men who had already been seventeen hours on foot. A very arduous pursuit lay before them and the enemy must have been fresher than the Israelites. The suns heat therefore must have been a serious hindrance, and Joshua must have desired it to be tempered. And the Lord hearkened to his voice and gave him this and much more. A great hailstorm swept up from the west, bringing with it a sudden lowering of temperature, and no doubt hiding the sun (E.W. Maunder, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, W. Lotz, M.G. Kyle, C.E. Armerding, eds., Revised edition, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1979, Vol. 1, p. 448).

Thus, the miracle was not a prolonging of the light but rather a cessation of it. Joshuas prayer was not at the end of the day asking for prolonged sunlight, rather it was at high noon asking for relief from the sun. The sun stopped shining in that it became dark. It was the sun that stopped shining, not that the whole solar system was stopped.

7. Night Prolonged

There are those who say that it was not the day that was prolonged but actually the darkness from the previous night. Hugh J. Blair says:

It has usually been assumed that Joshua prayed for the day to be prolonged. But is it not possible that what Joshua needed even more, since, as is expressly stated in v.9, he came upon the camp of the enemy by night, was that the darkness continue and the night be prolonged for a surprise attack? That it was early morning when he made his request is evident from the position of the moon in the valley of Aijalon (to the west) and the position of the sun over Gibeon (to the east) (v.12). The answer came in a hailstorm which had the effect of prolonging the darkness. (Hugh J. Blair, New Bible Commentary, p. 244).
This view would be make it Joshuas long night rather than a long day.

Conclusion

We have seen that there are a variety of explanations to Joshuas long day without having to admit to scientific error. Although several of these views are possible, the theory that the sun actually slowed down its movement seems to be the best way of looking at the evidence. Leon Wood writes:

The traditional view must be maintained, however, for these alternate explanations do not do justice to the language of the text. Though it is true the verb dum (translated stand still in Joshuas call) means basically "be silent" and so could refer to being silent in other ways than retardation of movement, still the verb amadh is also used (twice in v. 13) and it definitely indicates a change in pattern of movement. Further, verse 13 closes with the expression "and hasted not to go down," where the word "hasted" (uz) again speaks of motion, and the phrase "to go down" (labho) is normally in reference to the sun setting. Still further, verse 14 states that this day was unique in history which suggests a major miracle occurred such as to the prolongation of a natural day. The extent of the prolongation can also be estimated. Since the hour was noon when Joshua voiced the call, and it was stated that the sun did not go down for "about a whole day" (keyom tamin), it is likely that the afternoon hours until sunset were prolonged twice their normal length. In other words, the total daylight hours of the day were one and one-half times normal (Leon Wood, A Survey of Israels History, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1970, p. 181).

Wood explains how this would have effected the universe:

As to how this was effected, the closing words of vs. 13 "and hasted not to go down about a whole day," suggest that the relative positions of the sun and the earth did not hold still but merely slowed in their change. This means that the earth simply slowed, in its speed of rotation on its axis, approximately to half that of normal. This did not affect the speed of movement around the sun of the rest of the solar system, which complicating factors have been mentioned in criticism by those advocating other explanations (Leon Wood, A Survey of Israels History, p. 181, note 47).

Though this may be the best view, several of the others are certainly possible. Donald H. Madvig writes:

Reverence for Gods Word should encourage us to suspend judgment until more evidence is available. In the meantime no single explanation can be made a test of orthodoxy (Donald H. Madvig, "Joshua," The Expositors Bible Commentary, p. 304).

There have been stories circulating about reports of a "missing day" in ancient Egyptian, Chinese, and Hindu sources. There is also the story of a Yale astronomer who found that the earth was twenty-four hours out of schedule:

Another professor at Yale, Dr. Totten, suggested the astronomer read the Bible starting at the beginning and going as far as necessary, to see if the Bible could account for the missing time. When he came to the account of the long day of Joshua, the astronomer rechecked the figures and found that at the time of Joshua there were only twenty-three hours and twenty minutes lost. His skepticism justified, he decided that the Bible was not the Word of God because there was a mistake by forty minutes.

Professor Totten showed him that the Bible account does not say twenty-four hours, but rather about the space of a whole day. On reading farther the astronomer found that God, through the prophet Isaiah and in answer to Hezekiahs prayer, promised to add fifteen years to his life (II Kings 20:1-11; Isaiah 38:1-21). To confirm this promise, the shadow of the sundial was turned back ten degrees. Ten degrees on a sundial is forty minutes on the face of a clock. When he found his day of missing time accounted for in the Bible, the astronomer bowed his head in worship of its Author, saying, "Lord, I believe!" (Harry Rimmer, The Harmony of Science and Scripture, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1936, p. 33).

It is unfortunate that these often-told stories lack any documentation. Bernard Ramm explains:

There are two other matters that have been urged as evidence for a lengthened day and this material the author has not been able to track down nor confirm to his own satisfaction as to their accuracy or validity. First, there are Egyptian, Chinese, and Hindu reports of a long day . . . Second, there is the claim . . . that it is common knowledge among astronomers that one full day is missing in our astronomical calculations and that Prof. Pickering of the Harvard Observatory traced it back to the time of Joshua. Maunder of Greenwich and Totten of Yale are then supposed to have taken it right back to the time of Joshua, practically to the year and day. Then Totten added to this the 10° of Ahaz dial to found out the full day. This I have not been able to verify to my own satisfaction (Bernard Ramm, A Christian View of Science and The Scripture, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955, p. 109).
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Tuesday, August 01, 2006

158. Near death experiences are a reality

Ross Gasking
Channel 7 running this TV program say that a near death experience can never be experimentally replicated.
They say that after interviewing lots of people who have died, that it is anyone's guess whether the light at the end of the tunnel is a phenomenon of the brain closing down ( and so some uniformity might be expected), or is it an actual spiritual experience.
Those who experienced it said the same thing..except it is very real.
They could float around the ceiling level of their hospital rooms and see and hear what was going on, even sit on the bed!
My mother-in-law said the same thing...:she experienced all of this in Intensive Care; the light at the end of the tunnel is a common 'effect' and, the experience is very spiritual and the best they have ever had.
They said the fear of death subsequently is reduced, and can be looked forward to as a positive thing.. the uniting with God.
I shall never be sorry for anyone dying again...!

157. Panentheist challenge : the heavyweights

Ross Gasking offering something stupid..to challenge the philosophers on their home ground

On 21/07/2006, at 10:21 PM, Zen Mirror wrote:


--- "Lulu Dong" wrote:
"There is only one identity which we all share."
It's the identity of god.

Hi socket,
Is this your idea?
I'm asking because your philosophy intrests me.
Tell me more!

Hello Lulu,
The idea is multipersonal and kind of old.
Multipersonal meaning various people have had the same idea ... old
meaning it has been around for centuries ...
Do you need examples?
At the core of our philosophy stands the idea that everyone is equal
with god before they are born and after they die. Thus our
conclusion is, everyone equals god during life also.
Of course this viewpoint is valid only if we regard god, pre-birth and
after-death as non-existential realities.
It means that as we die, we continue to live in the presence of all,
and before we are born we have lived in the presence of all. Thus,
we are responsible for everything because we are everything, god,
death, the devil, everything.
The omnipotent identity is like a mirror to us, no matter who is
looking into this mirror, each creature sees itself.
Thus, in the mirror each creature is connected to every other, the
mirror connects us all.
Does that make sense?


---"blue.phantom" wrote:

" No, there is only one form of consciousness, this is a
minimalistic approach to consciousness, there is only one
consciousness, artificial or not, and there is only one identity,
everyone shares this identity, with everyone else, robots with
humans, humans with animals, animals with insects, insects with
plants."



--- Robot Alpha 1 wrote:

All beings are present in the mirror.
The mirror is present in all beings.


That is totally wrong. Consider the scripture:

Phl 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Ross Gasking
ross@8i.com

***
A panentheist uses reason and logic to arrive at a theological concept,
not scriptures from any established religion. All these are just the
words of men and have no guarantee of truth beyond whatever subjective
interpretation the reader chooses to put on them. However empirical
evidence and logical reasoning do carry a degree of warranty.

Personally, the Judeo-Christian scriptures mean nothing to me except as
curious records of an ancient people's superstitions and beliefs, some
of great value but much that is totally worthless.. It's no good
bringing Xtian quotes here unless you can back them up with reason. Only
fellow Xtians will find them relevant.

mac


***
Sorry, I had no idea where you were coming from:
What I have a problem with is in anyone comparing himself/ herself with God; when in actual fact God is present throughout the universe and our friend probably hasnt been out of her home state. Couldnt build a dog kennel let alone create the dog to go in it.
But I will meet your challenge if you like..: I can provide enough logic to satisfy the existence of Christ, regardless of history.
I came to this belief by logic, and I consider it my responsibility to share it.

My home site is www.science-vs-religion-christian-view.blogspot.com


Ross Gasking
ross@8i.com


***


I'd certainly endorse that.

OK, go for it. Your ideas are very welcome, but be ready for some
heavyweight logic in response............

:-)

mac